Atlanta Golden Demon coverage...

[LadyEyes]

Ok, a friend of mine competed at Atlanta, and according to him most of the minis looked MUCH better in person than the photos he has seen online. He said there were some truly beautiful pieces there, and as he's got a demon behind his name, I trust he can tell "truly beautiful" from "most people think it's good because they don't know better."

I have also heard mention (particularly last year at Chicago where I was keeping company with people who have competed at these things a lot) that judging at the American GDs can be as arbitrary and different from one to the other as they can from one country to another in Europe. If certain people are the head judges, they hate NMM and won't choose stuff with it if they can help it. Others hate metalics. And so on....

Last year at Chicago, darker colored models didn't do as well. Part of the speculation was because the lighting there was so poor they just didn't show as well. Since they don't typically have better lighting except for the photography area, the judges have to work with what the place has.


And personally, while all of you keep going on and on about how poor of a showing it was, keep in mind please... if I go to Baltimore and get my butt kicked (again) and everyone here goes on and on about how it was such a poor showing I'M GOING TO FEEL HORRIBLE AND NEVER SHOW YOU ANYTHING I PAINT AGAIN. (at least not for a looooooong time)

Sure, maybe some of the competition was thin. Have you seen the way the rules have changed here to combine certain categories? I predicted months ago that it might drive away some of the people who truly deserve a bronze or silver but not a gold. If you take away the mid-level painters some...

Please remember -- there should be a difference between commenting on a poor showing of talent at a competition and sounding insulting. Plus, you're getting digital pictures, not the real thing in front of you.

[Orb]

well thats a fair comment Ladyeyes! Please, do keep showing your stuff.....I'm no demon winner and everyone's work is inspirational!.

Of course it's a subjective thing in itself, judging these things.

However, looking at the pictures on the GW site, it's a fair comment that some of the the pieces that won are what many informed people might describe as "not really Golden Demon standard".

There are pieces there that don't have eyes painted - basics really; fine for a gaming piece, but a Demon?. Some checkerboard freehand is not consistent in size on others. For a competition that prides itself on being the premier painting competition, that's poor. Poor for GW more than anything. For those people who have won demons, they may feel it lowers the value to them personally.

And if some of those won because there were few entries (one category only had 4 entries - who is going to lose?), then I think GW has their priorities wrong - they need to draw the line and say nothing reached the high standards expected at GDs so no award was given in category A, for example. There's a reputation to think of here!!!

Photos are, yes, not what we see when we hold the model in our hands but they are fairly close and give a good indication. We can see when there are no eyes painted and when blacklining is heavy handed, or there are no highlights on a face. But do remember that you can't actually get that close to really judge due to the glass cases.

I believe GW should aim for some sort of consistency between events, a criteria list (it happens in other competitions); the whole thing is a mess worldwide - the French have the best model (former Slayer Sword winners judging, not staff), the final decision in the UK is the head of IP, not an artist (it is soooo true that marketing comes in to play).

GW have a great competition in their hands and they need to keep it special. Simple. It's not the entrants responsibility. The demon winners should inspire and have us looking in awe. There were some like that definately. But either the overall quality was down on previous years, or the judges in some cases made bad decisions.

Oh and how many staff categories........

[Skrit]

yeah if you want a deamon and dont know to paint join the staff.

Fair comments indeed Tanya! I also believe the pics don't do any justice at all but still have to say that miniature feeling wise, it's not up to what I'd normally expect for a Golden Demon event.

[LadyEyes]

Ok, Orb. I will grant you some of your comments. Unpainted eyes, uneven checkers, so on are easy to spot no matter the photo quality. But some of your comments are just not spot on to me.

You're assuming GW CARES about the Golden Demon competition. They might in other places, but if you attend them here (especially in the last few years) and you hear some of the comments made by staff, see how slipshod the whole thing is run, and so on it is VERY easy to tell that they really only keep holding it in order to pay lip service to the better painters.

Demons don't sell them more minis in any quantity worth mentioning. There is no extra entry fee. They only get a handful of people paying the entrance fee that wouldn't be paying it for the rest of the Games Day event. It simply is NOT a money maker. And in the US, from everything I have heard from GW staffers and store owners, the Almighty Dollar rules at GW US Corporate.

They COULD make this a premier painting competition. But they (meaning Corporate decision makers) really have NO incentive to do so.

The judging at Gen Con happens completely differently because it is RUN BY PAINTERS. Each piece is taken from the case and viewed under good lighting (whole category at once). The photos are taken in a light box with good lighting, good equipment, and someone who actually knows what he's doing. Then they are cropped/prepped for posting by someone that knows how to not ruin the photos in PhotoShop. The judges are all top painters.

GW certainly has the ABILITY to make it a great competition, but I honestly don't believe they will. They don't have to in order to keep selling their products.

[Orb]

Very good points - I guess my comments are coming from a UK perspective, and we get the whole "Spanish Team" "French Team" thing going on, so we are exposed to the differing "styles" that are so often discussed.

Guess I was coming from an idealistic point of view. I'm saying should and you're saying could but wont! And not having attended a US GD, was unaware of the lipservice thing. I believe you're right about GW caring - it's true all over the world really - if they really wanted an all encouraging painting competition for the painters it would be a very different affair, with better classes, better judging criteria etc. The fact that it is so different from country to country is my problem. The corporate GW should be making it consistent.

I've spoken with Sue Wachowski (paintminion) at length about competitions and GenCon, and that seems a great event with the right attitude (I did go to the World Model Soldier Expo last year in Boston - the US can sure put on a show). Does Gencon have an open system of judging? That is, gold awards to all work reaching a top level of acheivement etc, and non if nothing attains that level? That's a positive way of awarding painting/sculpting ability - first past the post is truly unfair (IMHO) but a Demon has become so iconic, it won't be got rid of.

You're lucky to have GenCon - a competiiton that allows mini's from all manufacturers to enter - and is respected. For many of us, that doesn't exist - only GD in the fantasy/sci-fi realm. So it's frustrating that it works so badly.

But I guess GW do need to do something to help sell their minis - looking at annual results last year - and the number of GW staffers in the UK unemployed - show that all too well. Still, mustn't bash GW.

[Trovarion]

the French have the best model (former Slayer Sword winners judging, not staff)

if that's true I will never go there, since they all hate me

as for picture quality, GW messes up most of their pictures. look at my Celeborn in the italian GD coverage and his face looks drybrushed. seriously.

I have to say I had the impression that they prefered metallic pieces on the Atlanta GD. Basically I wouldnt criticise the minis so much but the judging was just horrible...if - as a judge - you vote down minis because you dont like the style or let's say you vote down NMM because you probably are not even close to understanding it...then you shouldnt be a judge.

[Trovarion]

I've spoken with Sue Wachowski (paintminion)

is she a relative of the MAtrix dudes?!

[Grenadier]

Hi

This sounds so like the frequent discussions that go after Euro Militaire each year, did the judges make the right choices. Normally I would have to say yes they do, I have not seen a choice(even if the subject matter doesn't appeal to me) that wasn't a fantastically made and painted model.

The thing I think is that whatever wins sets the standard for everybody, the slayer sword winner says its the best and (Tanya I know I have only seen photos and I agree that changes a figure) in my opinion looking at the photos avaliable that its not that, its not the pinnacle of that show which it should be, this in my mind degrades the show.

GW should standardise as Orb says teh judging criteria ( At Euro if the figure don't deserve the award it doesn't get anything) which I think is correct. Last year in a class of about 120 odd figures only 2 golds, which is unusual, there was a class that got no awards. Just a sorry not up to standard,we have come to expect that at that show and maybe GW could adopt something similar.

Robin
(Grenadier)

[Mordred]

if - as a judge - you vote down minis because you dont like the style or let's say you vote down NMM because you probably are not even close to understanding it...then you shouldnt be a judge.

goddamnit, you couldn't be more right ! these are exactly my sentiments after almost every belgian painting comp. I see a lot of judges that just place models because they prefer the painting style used on it, not because they are technically better. the biggest weakness in most painting comps to date is still the judging imho ... too many people who don't know shit about painting. but that will always be a problem maybe, perhaps I should do my own painting comp and do the judging myself.

[LadyEyes]

Sue Wachowski to the best of my knowlege is not related to the Wachowski Brothers. Sorry, Trov.

I work with/for Sue at Gen Con, which is how I know anything about the judging there. To the best of my knowledge there is not a "sorry, just nothing past the gold deserves a medal," but having seen the pieces there last year I can honestly say the only category that I would have thought that really appropriate would have been Hatchlings. And doing that to Hatchlings is just a little mean.

Keep in mind, people competing at Gen Con last year included Jen Haley, Angela Imrie, Anne Foerster, Marike Reimer, Derek Schubert, Mayne Thiele, and so on... Even the less entered categories like Warmachine and Unit had pretty good entries.

I do know the Single category was LOADED with TONS of incredible entries. That one seemed to be where everyone wanted to really show off, and it was a tough one to judge.

Now if only Gen Con Euro could really take off and get their painting competition to the level of the Gen Con Indy and So Cal versions....